Concise docs on making an install for Vista

[NewsArchive]

Greetings,

Where can I find "concise", step-by-step, "compendious" documentation on how
to create an install file for a Desktop App (NOT Clarion Templates) for
Vista/Windows7 OS's??? I know there have been a LOT of msg's about this
with bits and pieces in each msg but all of those just don't do what I am
looking for.

Just to make sure you understand what I mean by concise, and compendious,
here are the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definitions from their web site.

con·cise
Pronunciation: \k?n-'sis\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin concisus, from past participle of concidere to cut up, from
com- + caedere to cut, strike
Date: circa 1590
: marked by brevity of expression or statement : free from all elaboration
and superfluous detail <a concise summary> <a concise definition>

synonyms
compendious : applies to what is at once full in scope and brief and concise
in treatment <a compendious dictionary>.

Thanks for any advice...
---
Best Regards,
Earl R Coker
www.kwiksystems.net
www.kwiksystems.com
www.kwiksystems.net/appshell/index.htm
www.kwiksystems.net/ClarionTemplates.htm (BigTamer(tm) Templates)

[NewsArchive]

You can feed a man by giving him a fish, but only if he doesn't piss
you off.

Jeff Slarve

[NewsArchive]

As for trying to teach some people to fish.....

Jane Fleming

[NewsArchive]

That was ruled out.

Jeff Slarve

[NewsArchive]

I wrote a number of articles for clarionmag on the subject... as have other
authors.

Unfortunately, you (and others) may not consider them concise because they
actually require some reading and thought.
There are conflicting statements in various bits of Microsoft's own
documentation, and some of its own products violate its own guidelines.

So why don't you do some research - learn about manifests, code-signing,
file and registry virtualization and who can write to where under what
circumstances, split-tokens and their implications for over-the-shoulder
installations, maintaining compatibility with older versions of Windows, DEP
and its effects on copy-protection (i.e., Armadillo), 64-bit Vista's
driver-signing requirements, where to put ini files, storing data for a
single user or for multiple users sharing a computer, etc etc etc - and then
write for us a concise no-thought-required step-by-step cookbook that will
cover ALL contingencies.

I have no doubt that the programming community would be happy to praise you
concisely for such a contribution.
Perhaps even tersely.
But never superfluously.....

Jane Fleming

[NewsArchive]

> Unfortunately, you (and others) may not consider them concise because they
> actually require some reading and thought.

This isnt Ruth's Chris, is it? (yeah, we got to food early on this one).
--

Mark Riffey
http://www.rescuemarketing.com/blog/
If Guy Kawasaki and the staff of the Wall Street Journal,
Fast Company & Business Week read it, maybe you should too.

[NewsArchive]

Hi Jane,

> Unfortunately, you (and others) may not consider them concise because they
> actually require some reading and thought.
> There are conflicting statements in various bits of Microsoft's own
> documentation, and some of its own products violate its own guidelines.

I think that with your excellent articles, David Troxel's blog, Friedrich's
postings and my small contributions on my blog, this is pretty well covered.
I have no doubt that it could be consolidated, but the fact is plainly that
there are so many options and possibilities that really depend on what you
are doing. Being "concise" and "compendious" I kind of doubt it will ever
be<g>

Best regards,

--
Arnór Baldvinsson - Icetips Creative, Inc.
Port Angeles, Washington
www.icetips.com - www.buildautomator.com

Icetips product subscriptions at http://www.icetips.com/subscribe.php

[NewsArchive]

Actually, I was going to mention Icetips. But I went to your site and
searched the "Articles" section and didn't see anything on Vista. Didn't
realize it was a blog.

Jane

[NewsArchive]

Hi Jane,

> Actually, I was going to mention Icetips. But I went to your site and
> searched the "Articles" section and didn't see anything on Vista. Didn't
> realize it was a blog.

Yes, it's on http://www.icetips.com/blog. Here are 3 links that I happen to
have in my clipboard right now<g>

http://profileexchanges.com/blog/?p=120
http://www.icetips.com/blog/index.php/2008/10/31/title
http://www.icetips.com/blog/index.php/2008/11/11/run-programs-elevated-on-vista

Best regards,

--
Arnór Baldvinsson - Icetips Creative, Inc.
Port Angeles, Washington
www.icetips.com - www.buildautomator.com

Icetips product subscriptions at http://www.icetips.com/subscribe.php

[NewsArchive]

> Greetings,
>
> Where can I find "concise", step-by-step, "compendious" documentation on how
> to create an install file for a Desktop App (NOT Clarion Templates) for
> Vista/Windows7 OS's???

Earl,

As Jane and others suggest - there are a lot of variables to consider -

My blog gives anyone a good start, using a very simple configuration, but
it does cover the basics - not step by step, but everything, you need to do
by some simple instruction and screen shots.

http://profileexchanges.com/blog/?p=120

Also, read through the excellent article by Arnor Baldvinsson of Icetips
Creative (mentioned in my blog).

Product Description - Where to put data under Vista?,
MFG - Icetips Creative
Internet Link - http://www.icetips.com/blog/index.php/2008/10/31/title

AND use Arnor's wonderful special folders program to identify CSIDL
locations as well - (these are both mentioned in the blog)

http://www.icetips.com/downloadfile.php?FileID=71

And, of course, Jane Fleming has some excellent articles on a number of
Vista issues if you have a Clarion Magazine subscription.

I believe if you follow the example in my blog, you'll successfully create
a Vista install - THEN, you can read information from the experts, and
further refine what you need to do to cover more involved and complex
installations.

Areas to key in are:

First, your Clarion program MUST write to Vista safe locations - this is
the bulk of the first part of the blog.

With the code given, you'll need to own CapeSoft's WinEvent - Icetip
Utilities has some alternative methods.

IF you're NOT using File Manager 3 - DON'T include this line of code.

ds_SetUPGPath( CLIP( GLO:CommonAppData )) !Tell FM3 where to find our
upgradable files

All of this is accomplished by using the code in the article in a single
Global embed - "After PROGRAM Code Statement" (with the exception noted in
the blog when using Clariontools)

and creating a Global data definition - GLO:CommonAppData

AS to the install itself - I use Lindersoft's SetupBuilder Developer
Edition for the examples, but these techniques can be adapted to other
install programs/methods as well.

Lindersoft's SetupBuilder Developer Edition makes it VERY easy to include
the necessities for a Vista install.

Areas to key in for the install:

Install your program to Program Files area.

Your program EXE needs to be UAC (Vista) manifested (later versions of
C6.3x include this ability) - I find it just as easy to let SetupBuilder do
it.

Your program EXE needs to be code signed - all of this is shown in a screen
shot - the order is Vista Manifest FIRST, then optional, Armadillo protect,
then Code Sign.

And, of course, you can use the install program to create the AppData
folder as well.

And I even include a screen shot to illustrate covering XP non-admin
support.

Point is this - start with someone's code and examples, attempt to create
your own Vista install - AND then just ask to clarify a particular point,
etc

Believe me, there are a LOT of Clarion developers in exactly the same
position as yours, judging by the private email I have received, and the
number of blog views.

AND, as to getting up to speed on Clarion and Vista - Others have
successfully been using these techniques for quite some time because of
Jane's articles, Friedrich's contributions and examples, Arnor's
contributions and examples, etc,

but as you point out, the information is in a variety of locations, that's
not a bad thing, because you get a greater wealth of experience and
techniques by reading these sources.

BUT, at least, try the simple methods I display in the blog, AND ASK!

I'd be glad to re-write the blog to make anything more clear (I've already
used many good suggestions already) - DOWNLOAD the text only version - so
when you copy the code to the global embed, it doesn't contain blog
formatted errors.

David




--
From David Troxell - Product Scope 7 - Encourager Software
Clarion Third Party Profile Exchange Online
http://encouragersoftware.com/profile/clarlinks.html
Profile Exchanges - www.encouragersoftware.com/profile/
http://www.profileexchanges.com/blog/

[NewsArchive]

Earl,

I think this would be easier if you are specific about your needs. There
are a lot of good resources, but I found myself in a similar situation. All
the write-ups I've read so far are very generic, you have to extract what
you are looking for out of these write-ups.

I think if everyone did something of a case study like Troxell did, then I
think these could be compiled into a document where one could look it up. I
say this since there are so many variables in different application designs,
that a one size fits all document is impossible.

I did my install building today, and thank goodness for the Skype chat as
Arnor and Wolfgang were very helpful. My needs were pretty basic, but there
is no document that I can recall that would fit that bill.

--
Russell B. Eggen
www.radfusion.com
Skype Clarion chat: http://tinyurl.com/2273lm

[NewsArchive]

Hi Russ,

> I think this would be easier if you are specific about your needs.

I thought that saying I wanted to do an install for a Desktop App was
concise enough, but apparently not. It seems that's an excellent example
about not being "concise" enough. <g> I was asking about an install for my
DerivedShell(tm) Products which are Business Management systems that most
people erroneously seem to want to call "accounting" systems.

> There
> are a lot of good resources, but I found myself in a similar situation.
> All
> the write-ups I've read so far are very generic, you have to extract what
> you are looking for out of these write-ups.

Very good idea and you just described the problem for which I was asking for
a solution.

> I think if everyone did something of a case study like Troxell did, then I
> think these could be compiled into a document where one could look it up.

That is a good description of what I was asking about. <g>

> I
> say this since there are so many variables in different application
> designs,
> that a one size fits all document is impossible.

Ummm, I "thought" I was asking for a document to use to make an install for
a specific type of application. I do realize that there are several
different types of apps that require doing install files different ways.
<g>

> I did my install building today, and thank goodness for the Skype chat as
> Arnor and Wolfgang were very helpful. My needs were pretty basic, but
> there
> is no document that I can recall that would fit that bill.

My point exactly. I am not the "coder" that you are so I am completely
stumped trying to figure out how to do a SetupBuilder install file from
"scratch" and/or from the "bits and pieces" in the many, many newsgroup msgs
I have read about the subject.
--
---
Best Regards,
Earl R Coker
www.kwiksystems.net
www.kwiksystems.com
www.kwiksystems.net/appshell/index.htm
www.kwiksystems.net/ClarionTemplates.htm (BigTamer(tm) Templates)

[NewsArchive]

> I am not the "coder" that you are so I am completely
> stumped trying to figure out how to do a SetupBuilder install file from
> "scratch" and/or from the "bits and pieces" in the many, many newsgroup msgs
> I have read about the subject.

I believe you have a business partner (it would seem) who would be an
excellent resource for this task.

Yes, I mean Bo.
--

Mark Riffey
http://www.rescuemarketing.com/blog/
If Guy Kawasaki and the staff of the Wall Street Journal,
Fast Company & Business Week read it, maybe you should too.

[NewsArchive]

Hi Mark,

Yes, Bo and I are "Associates". However, Bo does and installs ONLY
templates. I do and install ONLY desktop "accounting" (Business Management)
apps. Those are two very different "types" of installs just like they are
all telling me. But I already knew that. <g>
--
---
Best Regards,
Earl R Coker
www.kwiksystems.net
www.kwiksystems.com
www.kwiksystems.net/appshell/index.htm
www.kwiksystems.net/ClarionTemplates.htm (BigTamer(tm) Templates)

[NewsArchive]

Hi,

Geez, I certainly did not intend on pissing anyone off. My appologies if I
did, which is apparently so, from "some" of the responses. If you are
interested, please read my individual responses to those that I apparently
did not piss off and offered some advice. <g>
--
---
Best Regards,
Earl R Coker
www.kwiksystems.net
www.kwiksystems.com
www.kwiksystems.net/appshell/index.htm
www.kwiksystems.net/ClarionTemplates.htm (BigTamer(tm) Templates)

[NewsArchive]

Hi Earl,

> Geez, I certainly did not intend on pissing anyone off.

I don't think you did, but quoting web dictionaries for definitions of
simple English terms looks rather condescending to me. I have never had a
problem looking words up in my dictionary if I have a doubt about their
meaning and I'm sure that Friedrich has no problem with that either:)

Best regards,

--
Arnór Baldvinsson - Icetips Creative, Inc.
Port Angeles, Washington
www.icetips.com - www.buildautomator.com

Icetips product subscriptions at http://www.icetips.com/subscribe.php

[NewsArchive]

Arnor,

| I don't think you did, but quoting web dictionaries for definitions of
| simple English terms looks rather condescending to me. I have never had a
| problem looking words up in my dictionary if I have a doubt about their
| meaning and I'm sure that Friedrich has no problem with that either:)

When I began that msg, I just used the word concise. Then, since I don't
use that word a lot, I thought I would just quick look it up on the internet
and see if it was appropriate. So I did. Then I got to looking at all of
the synonyms that were listed for it. I found compendious which is a word I
had never seen or heard before which was, in my humble opinion, an even
better term to use.

So I said to myself, "Myself, why don't I just put the meanings of those
words right in the msg???" So I did and apparently pissed off some people.

I just now remembered a "related" word to compendious, which is compendium,
that I have heard in the distant past for which I could not remember the
"exact" meaning. So now I guess that is a good word to describe what I was
talking about in my reply to Russ Eggen.
--
---
Best Regards,
Earl R Coker
www.kwiksystems.net
www.kwiksystems.com
www.kwiksystems.net/appshell/index.htm
www.kwiksystems.net/ClarionTemplates.htm (BigTamer(tm) Templates)

[NewsArchive]

Hi Earl,

> When I began that msg, I just used the word concise. Then, since I don't
> use that word a lot, I thought I would just quick look it up on the internet
> and see if it was appropriate. So I did. Then I got to looking at all of

The problem is there are no concise docs on this issue. In fact I don't
know if there are ANY comprehensive docs on this at all<g> There is a lot
of variables to consider when creating installs for multiple versions of
Windows. While people tend to blame vista for making things complicated XP
has had the same "complications" for several years now, but because it did
not enforce user account access like Vista does, developers got away with
developing bad installs.

As Jane explained, there are even contradictions in MS own documentation so
this has become a bit of black magic I suppose.

One of the biggest questions when dealing with UAC, on any windows OS from
XP to Windows 7 - maybe even with WS2K and WS2003, I'm not sure since I've
never used either. I have tried to address that in my blog and so has she
and David Troxell in his blog:

http://profileexchanges.com/blog/?p=120
http://www.icetips.com/blog/index.php/2008/10/31/title
http://www.icetips.com/blog/index.php/2008/11/11/run-programs-elevated-on-vista

Best regards,

--
Arnór Baldvinsson - Icetips Creative, Inc.
Port Angeles, Washington
www.icetips.com - www.buildautomator.com

Icetips product subscriptions at http://www.icetips.com/subscribe.php

[NewsArchive]

> Hi Earl,
>
> On 8 Mar 2009 22:15:21 -0500, Earl R Coker wrote:
>
>> When I began that msg, I just used the word concise. Then, since I don't
>> use that word a lot, I thought I would just quick look it up on the internet
>> and see if it was appropriate. So I did. Then I got to looking at all of
>
> The problem is there are no concise docs on this issue. In fact I don't
> know if there are ANY comprehensive docs on this at all<g> There is a lot
> of variables to consider when creating installs for multiple versions of
> Windows. While people tend to blame vista for making things complicated XP
> has had the same "complications" for several years now, but because it did
> not enforce user account access like Vista does, developers got away with
> developing bad installs.
>
> As Jane explained, there are even contradictions in MS own documentation so
> this has become a bit of black magic I suppose.
>
> One of the biggest questions when dealing with UAC, on any windows OS from
> XP to Windows 7 - maybe even with WS2K and WS2003,

Arnor,

If you'd like to do some testing in a VM with Windows Server 2003, there is
a 6 month trial version you can download:

Product Description - Windows Server 2003 R2 with SP2
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsserver/bb430831.aspx

In my limited testing with the lastest Product Scope 7.6 install and
Windows 2000 Pro and Windows Server 2003, the install experience is similar
to XP -

both have the "C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Documents" CSIDL type
locations, and, both don't take advantage of a manifested EXE, the buttons,
etc are butt ugly - 2003 displays desktop icons at a higher resolution.

David

--
From David Troxell - Product Scope 7 - Encourager Software
Clarion Third Party Profile Exchange Online
http://encouragersoftware.com/profile/clarlinks.html
Profile Exchanges - www.encouragersoftware.com/profile/
http://www.profileexchanges.com/blog/

[NewsArchive]

> Hi,
>
> Geez, I certainly did not intend on pissing anyone off.

Earl,

As to the "fish" comments - let me add another one "Water off a duck's
back" :-D

Honestly, you ASKED a fair question - "You" would like a detailed - Step by
Step for Vista installs - such a method is called a tutorial -

Many tutorials are written to answer technical areas, and it's a great
method to use.

One of the reasons I wrote my blog in the fashion that I did was - yes, the
answers to a BASIC tutorial involving Vista installs is scattered about in
MANY articles, newsgroup discussions, screenshots, etc

and, you should make note of the various references, so when you decide
your approach to a particular project needs refining, more sophistication,
a wider view of the whole picture, etc - you'll have good technical
resources to draw on.

AND, my approach is a VERY simple implementation - designed for someone who
needs to get their feet wet.

BUT, that is the point - as I said previously, many Clarion developers are
STILL in the same boat as you - and need a basic approach to get started.

Clarion 7 is in many respects a wonderful tool (with alpha/beta flaws at
this point) with great promise, but it still doesn't address some of the
very basics of living in the Vista world (a Vista manifest is only a
start).

We still need work arounds as we did in C6, and my blog covers some of
that.

So, don't be offended or put off by the comments - sometimes we all just
need to "vent" - but above all - ask - many are willing to respond, and
help you with your learning curve in this critical area.

David

--
From David Troxell - Product Scope 7 - Encourager Software
Clarion Third Party Profile Exchange Online
http://encouragersoftware.com/profile/clarlinks.html
Profile Exchanges - www.encouragersoftware.com/profile/
http://www.profileexchanges.com/blog/

[NewsArchive]

> Hi Mark,
>
> Yes, Bo and I are "Associates". However, Bo does and installs ONLY
> templates. I do and install ONLY desktop "accounting" (Business Management)
> apps. Those are two very different "types" of installs just like they are
> all telling me. But I already knew that. <g>

If "Bo knows SB", Im sure he could handle it. Just because he writes 1 kind
of app doesnt mean he cant do the installer for a different kind.
--

Mark Riffey
http://www.rescuemarketing.com/blog/
If Guy Kawasaki and the staff of the Wall Street Journal,
Fast Company & Business Week read it, maybe you should too.

[NewsArchive]

Earl,

My install was for a commercial application, the next in a line of many to
come. It is not for developers (unless they want a time clock system <g>).
There was very little for me to do UAC-wise, but that was addressed as well.
Troxell's blog is too vague and overkill for what I needed, but did use a
bit of his stuff as it had a critical piece I needed. And the data Arnor
put together was extremely helpful, but I had to study these sources of data
applied to my situation. Then the background information that Jane put
together in her articles on Clarion Mag set the stage for what I knew I had
to look for.

The point (in my case) is that you can read many useful things, but until
you find yourself in a situation where you must apply these materials, you
are going to have to assemble some notes and go back and forth a lot. And
yes, your first attempts will have mistakes. Its all part of the learning
curve which never really stops.

The point is, even for a dirt simple install UAC-wise, not a single write
up that I am aware of could handle what I wanted, but all had information
that lead to a simple solution. So if you want a document that covers UAC
issues, I think there have been write-ups for that. Probably more than you
ever wanted to know about it too! Where to place certain files? What are
all those registry key names? Looks like a bunch of gibberish. Arnor made
a "Rosetta Stone" application that showed all those gibberish names and
their real English names as seen on your computer. You just can't ask for
better context than that! Its available for free off his blog.

How about coding an install for only network systems? Why would you do
that? If you had an application that can only work best in a network
condition, then I think you need something for that. How does UAC impact
that? What is the same or different or even similar?

A single document covering these issues (and those not even discussed yet)
in a concise form is just not possible. A single document covering many
concise examples is realistic and possible. And it will never be complete.
I could document a lot of scenarios, but wanna bet you could find one I
missed? ;-)

--
Russell B. Eggen
www.radfusion.com
Skype Clarion chat: http://tinyurl.com/2273lm

[NewsArchive]

> Earl,
>
> My install was for a commercial application, the next in a line of many to
> come. It is not for developers (unless they want a time clock system <g>).
> There was very little for me to do UAC-wise, but that was addressed as well.
> Troxell's blog is too vague and overkill for what I needed, but did use a
> bit of his stuff as it had a critical piece I needed.

Russ,

Well, if this will make you feel any better, I didn't write any of the code
- the Pros did! - just assembled it! :-D

BTW, I really like your idea that others might write up some case studies.
Obviously, a lot of developers need much more involved setups, and would be
great material to study.

David

--
From David Troxell - Product Scope 7 - Encourager Software
Clarion Third Party Profile Exchange Online
http://encouragersoftware.com/profile/clarlinks.html
Profile Exchanges - www.encouragersoftware.com/profile/
http://www.profileexchanges.com/blog/

[NewsArchive]

Your write up was fine for what it did. The main problem with such things
is that they are very specific for a given situation and you must assume the
reader has no knowledge of your design. To put some constructive criticism
on your article, you never stated *why* you had to put those calls in for
WinEvent or FM3, and I mean in a painfully obvious way. For example, "FM3
creates a file and the default location is with the EXE." So where should
that file go? Keep in mind there are workstation solutions and then network
solutions (for where everyone sees the same data). That was not even
mentioned. Also, you showed the function in SB to set permissions. That
was good, but I had to stare at that screenshot for a while to figure out
where it goes and then figure out how to add it (once I found it). The
assumption was the reader was as familiar with SB as you are - what if they
are not?

Now lets go positive and what I found good about your article. Screen
shots. Gotta like those! ;-) The posted code and where it goes was also
good. That bit about setting permissions in SB was also key.

Overall, I found the article useful. At the same time, I do understand
where Earl is coming from.

--
Russell B. Eggen
www.radfusion.com
Skype Clarion chat: http://tinyurl.com/2273lm

[NewsArchive]

> Your write up was fine for what it did. The main problem with such things
> is that they are very specific for a given situation and you must assume the
> reader has no knowledge of your design.

Russ, thanks much for this constructive criticism - you're a well known
technical writer, so I appreciate the pointers to improve my article.

> To put some constructive criticism
> on your article, you never stated *why* you had to put those calls in for
> WinEvent or FM3, and I mean in a painfully obvious way. For example, "FM3
> creates a file and the default location is with the EXE." So where should
> that file go? Keep in mind there are workstation solutions and then network
> solutions (for where everyone sees the same data).

OK, this intro article is just that - get them up and running on a single
computer - too many variables to discuss (in a short blog) with both the
Clarion side and the computer side to discuss a variety of techniques that
could be employed. SO I will make that point clear.

However, once the App Data IS out of the EXE folder, this beginning example
can be a springboard to other solutions.

> That was not even
> mentioned. Also, you showed the function in SB to set permissions. That
> was good, but I had to stare at that screenshot for a while to figure out
> where it goes and then figure out how to add it (once I found it). The
> assumption was the reader was as familiar with SB as you are - what if they
> are not?

Yes, completely right on that point, I knew as I wrote this first time
around, I was being a bit cryptic, and would need a re-write to better
clarify different sections.

In the text only version - I describe the Set Permissions code in more
detail since I wasn't using a screen shot - I'll clarify this a bit more,
and add it to the CHM version as well - the blog will stay more
abbreviated, but the text and CHM version will be more fully documented.

> Now lets go positive and what I found good about your article. Screen
> shots. Gotta like those! ;-)

Well, that was my primary aim when I started - without full step by step -
show a screen shot so they could easily study it, AND determine a bit more
quickly - WHERE they need to place their own code - install techniques,
WHERE it needs to be placed in SB, etc

> The posted code and where it goes was also
> good. That bit about setting permissions in SB was also key.

Well, as I was researching this - found out quite a few developers
completely miss supporting the XP non-admin user - vital in corporate
environments, and probably some missed sales.

Thanks again for your comments.

David

--
From David Troxell - Product Scope 7 - Encourager Software
Clarion Third Party Profile Exchange Online
http://encouragersoftware.com/profile/clarlinks.html
Profile Exchanges - www.encouragersoftware.com/profile/
http://www.profileexchanges.com/blog/

[NewsArchive]

Hi David,

> In my limited testing with the lastest Product Scope 7.6 install and
> Windows 2000 Pro and Windows Server 2003, the install experience is similar
> to XP -
>
> both have the "C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Documents" CSIDL type
> locations, and, both don't take advantage of a manifested EXE, the buttons,
> etc are butt ugly - 2003 displays desktop icons at a higher resolution.

I have all the OS' on the MSDN subscription and I already have WS2003 on a
VM, but I'm not familiar with the user access setup on it so I have stayed
away from it;) CSIDL goes all the way back to Windows 95 with IE 4 shell
extension on it so it's nothing new;)

Best regards,


--
Arnór Baldvinsson - Icetips Creative, Inc.
Port Angeles, Washington
www.icetips.com - www.buildautomator.com

Icetips product subscriptions at http://www.icetips.com/subscribe.php

[NewsArchive]

David,

Just remember the one secrete to being a good writer:

Avoid clichés like the plague.

--
Russell B. Eggen
www.radfusion.com
Skype Clarion chat: http://tinyurl.com/2273lm

[NewsArchive]

> David,
>
> Just remember the one secrete to being a good writer:
>
> Avoid clichés like the plague.

Russ,

Thanks for the hints!

I'd appreciate (if after viewing the latest March 10 2009 text or CHM
format), you'd send some private email (or here, I don't mind public
constructive criticism) with any glaring technical or non-techical errors I
have committed in my "apprentice copy editor" role! :-D

David

--
From David Troxell - Product Scope 7 - Encourager Software
Clarion Third Party Profile Exchange Online
http://encouragersoftware.com/profile/clarlinks.html
Profile Exchanges - www.encouragersoftware.com/profile/
http://www.profileexchanges.com/blog/