New feature request

[NewsArchive]

Friedrich,

No rush on this, just thought of this today. I've no idea how difficult
this could be or the problems that might be encountered.

In recent months, I've acquired two new machines. The biggest pain in
setting these machines up is moving installed applications from one machine
to another. Some are easier than others, and some are just a PITA.

To help vendors transfer their applications from one computer to another, it
would be neat if applications could build new installs based on their
current settings and data. IOW, it mimics the original install, but
includes all the settings, registry keys (especially new ones created by
users in their normal running of the application), data files, etc. This
could be an option in the installed application, not really sure on that
point <g>.

Anyway, what happens is the user gets a new machine, runs a "re-locate"
option, which in effect makes a special "setup" program. Complete with all
the environmental data it needs (unlike the original setup). When the setup
is completed and verified then an uninstall could be performed (that may be
a bit tricky). This setup is then copied to the new computer and run. The
net effect is that the old computer no longer has the application installed
and the new one does, and appears that it has been there for a long time.

Obviously, this won't apply to upgrades.

But if your customers had a way to move (not copy) installs from one
machine to another, and the actual application did its own packing in
preparation for re-locating, this would be quite a feature non-SetupBuilder
users won't have.

Obviously this would need some careful planning. I can think of a few
problems, for example the old machine is XP, the new is Vista. What happens
if the application is signed?

JAT,

--
Russell B. Eggen
www.radfusion.com

[NewsArchive]

Hi Russ,

>But if your customers had a way to move (not copy) installs from one
>machine to another, and the actual application did its own packing in
>preparation for re-locating, this would be quite a feature non-SetupBuilder
>users won't have.

The big problem with this is piracy. This would make it very easy to
re-distribute a _working_ copy of the software. Also there is a
problem with this since SB only knows about what the software
installed. Not what the software may have created in terms of files,
registry keys, etc. etc. This could certainly be built into the
software, but I'm not sure this would be applicable to software that
just installs software. I think the idea is great, don't take me
wrong, but I'm not sure it applies to SB:) If this could be developed
as an addon to software developers then the developer more in charge
of how and where things get moved and can control if the software can
enforce re-registration (i.e. it turns into a trial software if you
copy it until you either get a new key or dig up the old one).

Best regards,


Best regards,

Arnór Baldvinsson
Icetips Creative, Inc.
San Antonio, Texas, USA
www.icetips.com


Subscribe to information from Icetips.com:
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[NewsArchive]

Like I said, there are issues that need thinking out. ;-)

--
Russell B. Eggen
www.radfusion.com

[NewsArchive]

> Like I said, there are issues that need thinking out. ;-)

That would not work with an Armadillo protected app because there is no way
that the installer could even be aware of what/where the Armadillo
protection was doing - even if the developer wanted it to.

The (moved) app would either not work at all, or at a minimum would trigger
whatever defenses the developer had put into place (reverting to demo mode,
deleting itself, erasing the hard drive - name your poison<g>)


;-)

Charles

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Edmonds

www.clarionproseries.com - "Serious imaging tools for Clarion Developers"
www.ezround.com - "Round Corner HTML tables with matching Banners, Buttons
and Forms!"
www.lansrad.com - "Intelligent Solutions for Universal Problems"
www.fotokiss.com - "World's Best Auction Photo Editor"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[NewsArchive]

Hi Charles,

I do this now with one of my Armadillo protected applications. When the user
registers my application I do a couple of things to the registration name
and registration key. I then save the information that can be recovered
later.

Within my application I have a feature to do a complete backup. This of
course includes the entire application and data files. A self extracting EXE
is created from the ZIP file. My only oversight here was I didn't make it
password protected. My next update will provide this.

The EXE file can now be copied onto a CD, USB or other portable storage
device and moved to another machine. When the EXE is executed the user has
the option of selecting the drive and folder where they want the files to be
extracted to.

Once the files have been extracted from the compressed file the program is
ready to run. Of course, at this point, there are no shortcuts or menu items
to run the program so it must be started manually. When the application runs
it recognizes that it was previously registered and offers the user the
opportunity to register it on the new computer.

USER DECLINES:
If the user declines the auto registration, the application will run as a 30
Trial. No shortcuts or registry information is created. In my case, I want
my user to be able to take their entire program and data with them and in an
emergency be able to access their program and data using virtually any
computer in the world running a Windows OS within minutes.

USER ACCEPTS:
If the user accepts the auto registration feature, the Armadillo
registration information is recovered and entered silently thereby
registering the application on the new computer. In addition, a small
utility creates all the Start Menu and Desktop shortcuts and creates all the
required "Registry" keys so the program will behave as though it were a
fresh install. This includes the appropriate entries to perform my Web
Updates and a complete and proper uninstall. This provides a slick method
for my user to transfer their entire application to a new computer
effortlessly.

I must admit, it did take awhile to work out all the details. SB played a
"major" role in making this a reality.

--
Regards,

Lee
http://www.cya2day.com

[NewsArchive]

> The EXE file can now be copied onto a CD, USB or other portable storage
> device and moved to another machine. When the EXE is executed the user has
> the option of selecting the drive and folder where they want the files to be
> extracted to.

The problem I see with that is that your program is no longer protected!

What stops the person from simply giving it away to their friends?

Unless your users have to reenter the registration code and name on the new
machine (or you are doing it programmatically when it runs there), then
your app is wide open!

Armadillo protection works by doing things to the machine where it is
installed.

If you can move it to a new machine without that - then whatever your doing
is not protecting you.

If your intention is only to protect during the initial distribution, you
don't need Armadillo - you could have just used the SetupBuilder code
system.


Charles




--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Edmonds

www.clarionproseries.com - "Serious imaging tools for Clarion Developers"
www.ezround.com - "Round Corner HTML tables with matching Banners, Buttons
and Forms!"
www.lansrad.com - "Intelligent Solutions for Universal Problems"
www.fotokiss.com - "World's Best Auction Photo Editor"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[NewsArchive]

>> The EXE file can now be copied onto a CD, USB or other portable storage
>> device and moved to another machine. When the EXE is executed the user
>> has
>> the option of selecting the drive and folder where they want the files to
>> be
>> extracted to.
>
> The problem I see with that is that your program is no longer protected!

Sure it is. When the application is run on the new machine Armadillo sees it
as being run the first time and invokes its use as a trial version. It does
whatever it does to make it run in that mode. I use the same application for
both trial and registered.

>
> What stops the person from simply giving it away to their friends?

If they want to give away all their data and personal information I guess
there is nothing to stop them. However, every report in the application
brands the registered users name on it. I don't think the reports would be
of much use with someone elses name on them.

>
> Unless your users have to reenter the registration code and name on the
> new
> machine (or you are doing it programmatically when it runs there), then
> your app is wide open!

I do this programatically when the application is run on the new computer.
This also provides another small benefit. The user doesn't need to remember
the registration key in order to move it to another computer.

>
> Armadillo protection works by doing things to the machine where it is
> installed.

By programatically, silently, registering the Armadillo registration name
and registration key, this is exactly what is taking place. Isn't it?

>
> If you can move it to a new machine without that - then whatever your
> doing
> is not protecting you.

Please explain..... I thought I had covered all the bases but if I've
overlooked something, shame on me.

>
> If your intention is only to protect during the initial distribution, you
> don't need Armadillo - you could have just used the SetupBuilder code
> system.

The data from my application could essentially be life saving and I need to
provide a method for the user to access it at a moments notice, considering
the fact the computer where they originally have it installed could have
been destroyed. This method provides a safe, simple and speedy method of
moving it to another computer for instant access using the backup they
created. They can copy the backup to a USB memory stick, stick it in their
pocket and have it available for access no matter where they are.

I think I have this all worked out and have tested it pretty thoroughly,
however, I have been known to make mistakes....<g>

Thanks for the feedback.

--
Regards,

Lee
http://www.cya2day.com

[NewsArchive]

Hi Lee,

> Sure it is. When the application is run on the new machine Armadillo sees it
> as being run the first time and invokes its use as a trial version. It does
> whatever it does to make it run in that mode. I use the same application for
> both trial and registered.
>
> I do this programatically when the application is run on the new computer.
> This also provides another small benefit. The user doesn't need to remember
> the registration key in order to move it to another computer.
>
> By programatically, silently, registering the Armadillo registration name
> and registration key, this is exactly what is taking place. Isn't it?

Yes

> Please explain..... I thought I had covered all the bases but if I've
> overlooked something, shame on me.

;-)

No problem - just wanted to make sure you'd not overlooked the obvious
somewhere<g>.

It appears that your storing the user name and password (perhaps in a TPS
file) - then shipping them with the app for a silent reinstall on a new
machine.

This is your biggest security risk.

If someone was to break into where you had stored it - they would have an
open password that could be passed around.

> The data from my application could essentially be life saving and I need to
> provide a method for the user to access it at a moments notice, considering
> the fact the computer where they originally have it installed could have
> been destroyed. This method provides a safe, simple and speedy method of
> moving it to another computer for instant access using the backup they
> created. They can copy the backup to a USB memory stick, stick it in their
> pocket and have it available for access no matter where they are.
>
> I think I have this all worked out and have tested it pretty thoroughly,
> however, I have been known to make mistakes....<g>
>
> Thanks for the feedback.

;-)

Glad to help - again, I just wanted to make sure you were not missing
something.

I'm not fond of the idea of storing the registration data as I do think it
places you at risk. Your entire application is only as secure as that
point.

I do understand about the name on reports - that helps and in your case, it
may be enough.

When we release RegKISS, you might be able to take advantage of what it can
do (in the interaction with SetupBuilder) and find a better solution there.

You'll have the option of interacting with the installer during the install
or during a check for update.

One other feature we are looking at is allowing a "purchase token". This
is in effect a short term keycode that would enable the app while you have
time to validate the purchase. You might be able to utilize the same
feature to offer a "rescue" code.

We'll give this some more thought...

Good luck on the project!


Charles

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Edmonds

www.clarionproseries.com - "Serious imaging tools for Clarion Developers"
www.ezround.com - "Round Corner HTML tables with matching Banners, Buttons
and Forms!"
www.lansrad.com - "Intelligent Solutions for Universal Problems"
www.fotokiss.com - "World's Best Auction Photo Editor"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[NewsArchive]

Hi Charles,

Please don't take my comments the wrong way. I certainly realize, as always,
you are being helpful.

The application involved is my home inventory program, CYA ( Computerize
Your Assets ). My objective is to provide a recovery mechanism unlike any of
my competitors.

I have some features in place, that in theory, provides my users the ability
to deliver complete documentation of the contents of their home to their
insurance company within hours of a catastrophic event. Even if their home
and computer were completely destroyed. This program recovery process is
only part of that endeavor.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm not terribly concerned about my users
sharing their backups with someone else as it will also contain all their
data. They could just as easily give someone their Armadillo registration
information and it would surely be much simpler.

Anyway, this new application recovery feature is in the update I'm about to
release so it may be awhile before I get any real feedback. Good or bad.

Thanks again for your insight.

--
Regards,

Lee
http://www.cya2day.com

[NewsArchive]

> Please don't take my comments the wrong way. I certainly realize, as always,
> you are being helpful.

No problem Lee - I just wanted to be sure you'd not missed something that
could come back to hurt you.

You know the old saying - once the Genie is out of the bottle...

;-)

I know one shareware developer who (a few years ago) shipped an update to
his app that he forgot to apply the protection to...

The next day he released a "major bug fix" (protected of course), but there
are still copies of the unprotected version floating about the download
sites even today.

> The application involved is my home inventory program, CYA ( Computerize
> Your Assets ). My objective is to provide a recovery mechanism unlike any of
> my competitors.
>
> I have some features in place, that in theory, provides my users the ability
> to deliver complete documentation of the contents of their home to their
> insurance company within hours of a catastrophic event. Even if their home
> and computer were completely destroyed. This program recovery process is
> only part of that endeavor.
>
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm not terribly concerned about my users
> sharing their backups with someone else as it will also contain all their
> data. They could just as easily give someone their Armadillo registration
> information and it would surely be much simpler.

That makes sense and in your app the process will most likely work as
expected.

> Anyway, this new application recovery feature is in the update I'm about to
> release so it may be awhile before I get any real feedback. Good or bad.
>
> Thanks again for your insight.

Glad to chip in my $.02 worth.

I always figure it is better to sing out and let someone see if the advice
fits their circumstance than it is to sit back quiet and later wish I'd
said something.

I hope this works well for you!

Take care,

Charles


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Edmonds

www.clarionproseries.com - "Serious imaging tools for Clarion Developers"
www.ezround.com - "Round Corner HTML tables with matching Banners, Buttons
and Forms!"
www.lansrad.com - "Intelligent Solutions for Universal Problems"
www.fotokiss.com - "World's Best Auction Photo Editor"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[NewsArchive]

Sounds like a nice solution.

--
Russell B. Eggen
www.radfusion.com

[NewsArchive]

Thanks Russ,

I'll let you know if I run into any unexpected issues. This added feature is
included in a new update I'm about to release so it may take awhile to see
what happens.

--
Regards,

Lee
http://www.cya2day.com

[NewsArchive]

Russ,

M$ does it for Office, why can't you do it for your app ?

After all reg keys etc are from your app so it should be easy to sum them up
and transfer all with lszip....data and all

Some of my clients are kings of images restored for a partition where the
app is installed and they have dificulties understanding it cannot work
without the relevant reg keys on another partition....

"We" devs change machines but when clients do it I try helping them one by
one rather then writing a special mover app ....

Maybe if you have many in this case you should....

Whether it is XP or Vista or Longhorn etc makes no difference if all reg
keys are all os aware
makes also no difference if an exe is signed as it is rreadable from all
os's again ....

just a question of reading all your apps keys and storing that in a reg file
then all data paths and files in a zip - then install a new copy of your app
and run the reg file and unzip and you are set

JP

--

Thank you

Jean-Pierre GUTSATZ

Best Regards

[NewsArchive]

CYA ( Computerize Your Assets ).

Are you sure, that that name is not protected... I remember a template
called C(over) Y(our)A(ss)...

:-)

Edvard Korsbæk

[NewsArchive]

C(over) -- C(omputerize)
Mmm... They even sound different...<g>

--
Regards,

Lee
http://www.cya2day.com

[NewsArchive]

Ass far as I can smell, you're right.

Jeff Slarve