Run Statement, and some Whining

[NewsArchive]

[Wednesday, April 20, 2005 4:43 AM]

Hi

If Professional v5 1109 then run statement executed BERFORE the OCX'es my
app contained was registered.

Is there a way to first install, then regsvr32 the OCX'es then RUN ?

Now it works as I test here, but if I ship it gives dosens of errors, due to
licencing /registration issues .

The way I discovered this was with my beta testers, first time installation
a lot of errors, the kille the installation and try again OK (OCX
registered)

I cant test this with the new build , my OCX are in "developer mode" and
will always be registered, and it seems to leave some sort of traces in the
registery (or someplace).


Also will there be a simple "1-2-3" and "your done", type of wizard ? the
whole process of making a build its just to complicated, 1000 of checkboxes,
stringvars, Options, scripts ect?... hey do I have to learn a new language ?
If this continue, I might have to start reading user documentation!!

KISS (Keep It Short Simple) <g>

My dreambuilder would be.: Do a SCAN (Dynamic+Static+whatever), add some
more files(ini+tps+lic), My productname+Companyname, then compile ->SHIP

The critics said about SB4(Translated from Norwegian), after giving maximum
stars "This can not be simpler ...", so why is SB5 so complicated?
I'd never read any documentation on your products before, it was so easy and
intuitive (I'd just Compile & Ship)
I'd never
In the past I'd use a new installation with SB4 to supply my customers with
one or more files (After the main installation) this way I was shure the
files went on the right spot (Folder), but now ?? mutch easyer to send the
file, and have a hour phone support learning the customer the pitfalls of
the file explorer.

And in SB5 when I Pick files manually if have listed 2-3000 files from my
developer folder, all the CLW's, *.inc and so forth, no search/Exclude from
file list, eaven if I know the name of the file I want to pick, I still have
to scroll this huge list, at least let me have a "Insert manually" button
where I can type the filename.

I came from WISE to SB (many years ago in computer terms), there(inWISE) I
had a choice between EASY,ADVANCED, AND READLY COMPLICATED[you must read the
manual!!] ) when I choose "Easy" 95% of the options dissapeared from my
screen, and this was great!!, especially if my app was just 3 small files ,
if a needed a advanced option I just turned on "Advanced" check the
option(or whatever) switch back to "Easy" for a clean screen (The advanced
option was still cheked) and did a compile.

AND I also firmly belive that a SCAN (that Wise call "Watch") should include
the (dynamic+static) (Ok it is a marketing, buisness decicion), but Wise has
their watch in their standard one.:
About WATCH: "Monitor your system as you execute an application to determine
which DLL and OCX files are used by the application and then automatically
add the necessary files to your installation." (From their website Standard
+ Prof.)
I have no problems purchasing your developer version in terms of cost, but
I'm afraid to make my life more complicated, as I strive to simplicity.

Would the developer version make my simple small installations a 3 point and
click operation ?

I know this is some whining, but I feel the need to tell you from a (NON
advanced user's) standpoint that the product (great as it is) has lost some
of the great features that the SB4 had namly "simplicity". YES this is my
personal opinion, and I know a lot of others shout loud about how pleased
they are with the advcanced features. But I've spoke to some few others that
feels the same way I do, it could wery well be somthing wrong with us, ok
maiby I've picked the wrong product and started flaming the developer, this
was not the intension, just some feelings I have from spending time with
SB5.

Best regards



Tor-Bjarne Henriksen
WinVask Systems A.S

[NewsArchive]

Tor-Bjarne,

Thank you for your time and valuable feedback.

> If Professional v5 1109 then run statement executed BERFORE the OCX'es my
> app contained was registered.
>
> Is there a way to first install, then regsvr32 the OCX'es then RUN ?
>
> Now it works as I test here, but if I ship it gives dosens of errors, due
> to licencing /registration issues .
>
> The way I discovered this was with my beta testers, first time
> installation a lot of errors, the kille the installation and try again
> OK (OCX registered)
>
> I cant test this with the new build , my OCX are in "developer mode" and
> will always be registered, and it seems to leave some sort of traces in
> the registery (or someplace).

You can register the OCXs wherever you want in your script. Before you
execute your run function, just add a "Register OCXs/DLLs" script function
(check the Register all pending OCXs/DLLs/EXEs/TLBs option).

> Also will there be a simple "1-2-3" and "your done", type of wizard ? the
> whole process of making a build its just to complicated, 1000 of
> checkboxes, stringvars, Options, scripts ect?... hey do I have to learn a
> new language ?

You can build your installation in 20 seconds:

1. Start the IDE.
2. File|New|Empty Project...
3. Click Save to create the project.
4. Double click [PRODUCTNAME] in the General Information list and enter your
product name.
5. Enter your installation path in the [INSTALLDIR] field.
6. Compile and Run

The above takes 20 seconds here. SB5 generates a super-fast and super-small
115 KB installation file for you. This even includes the uninstaller.

Okay, Friedrich, but it's an empty installer. How do I add my files?

7. Open the "Files and Folders" Visual Designer (it looks like the SB4
screen).
8. Select "Application Folder" in the lower left list.
9. Add your folders and files.
10. Compile and Run.

Let us create a Clarion 6.1 installation. Adding all Clarion 6.1 files
(including folders and subfolders) takes 1 second (see attached screenshot).

All the above would take 4-5 minutes with SB4, but only 20-30 seconds with
SB5.

> If this continue, I might have to start reading user documentation!!
>
> KISS (Keep It Short Simple) <g>

You only need the documentation when using the Script Editor (IMO).

> My dreambuilder would be.: Do a SCAN (Dynamic+Static+whatever), add some
> more files(ini+tps+lic), My productname+Companyname, then compile ->SHIP

And you can't do this with SB5? Why????

1. Start the IDE.
2. File|New|Empty Project...
3. Click Save to create the project.
4. Double click [PRODUCTNAME] in the General Information list and enter your
product name.
5. Enter your installation path in the [INSTALLDIR] field.
6. Perform a Dynamic or Static scan.
7. Compile and Run

> The critics said about SB4(Translated from Norwegian), after giving
> maximum stars "This can not be simpler ...", so why is SB5 so complicated?

Sorry, but I don't understand this. Where is SB5 complicated? SB5 and SB4
have nearly the same screens (Files and Folder, Shortcut, etc). But now SB5
provides full drag and drop. You can drag and drop folders, files,
shortcuts, everything. In SB4 this was not possible.

Could you please let me know one function where SB4 was easier to use than
SB5?

> I'd never read any documentation on your products before, it was so easy
> and intuitive (I'd just Compile & Ship)
> I'd never In the past I'd use a new installation with SB4 to supply my
> customers with one or more files (After the main installation) this way
> I was shure the files went on the right spot (Folder), but now ?? mutch
> easyer to send the file, and have a hour phone support learning the
> customer the pitfalls of the file explorer.

Hmm, both SB4 and SB5 have the *same* Files and Folders screen. Where do
you see a difference between SB4 and SB5 in this screen?

> And in SB5 when I Pick files manually if have listed 2-3000 files from my
> developer folder, all the CLW's, *.inc and so forth, no search/Exclude
> from file list, eaven if I know the name of the file I want to pick, I
> still have to scroll this huge list, at least let me have a "Insert
> manually" button where I can type the filename.

You can now define include and even exclude wildcards. For example, include
all *.exe and *.dll or include all files *.* and exclude *.clw, inc*, etc.
You can even add a complete folder tree with one single line. No way to
do this in SB4.

> I came from WISE to SB (many years ago in computer terms), there(inWISE) I
> had a choice between EASY,ADVANCED, AND READLY COMPLICATED[you must read
> the manual!!] ) when I choose "Easy" 95% of the options dissapeared from
> my screen, and this was great!!, especially if my app was just 3 small
> files, if a needed a advanced option I just turned on "Advanced" check
> the option(or whatever) switch back to "Easy" for a clean screen (The
> advanced option was still cheked) and did a compile.
>
> AND I also firmly belive that a SCAN (that Wise call "Watch") should
> include the (dynamic+static) (Ok it is a marketing, buisness decicion),
> but Wise has their watch in their standard one.:

Wise Standard costs $449 and includes a dynamic scan (no static scan).
Wise Professional costs $999.

SB5 Pro costs $249 and includes a static scan. SB5 Dev costs $399 and
includes everything.

> About WATCH: "Monitor your system as you execute an application to
> determine which DLL and OCX files are used by the application and then
> automatically add the necessary files to your installation." (From their
> website Standard + Prof.)
> I have no problems purchasing your developer version in terms of cost, but
> I'm afraid to make my life more complicated, as I strive to simplicity.

Of course, it's your decision.

> Would the developer version make my simple small installations a 3 point
> and click operation ?

See above.

> I know this is some whining, but I feel the need to tell you from a (NON
> advanced user's) standpoint that the product (great as it is) has lost
> some of the great features that the SB4 had namly "simplicity". YES this
> is my personal opinion, and I know a lot of others shout loud about how
> pleased they are with the advcanced features. But I've spoke to some few
> others that feels the same way I do, it could wery well be somthing wrong
> with us, ok maiby I've picked the wrong product and started flaming the
> developer, this was not the intension, just some feelings I have from
> spending time with SB5.

Perhaps I have worked too long on this project (more than 3 years full time
and non-stop). But I cannot see for my life where SB5 is more complicated
than SB4 :-( Okay, SB5 gives you access to the script now, but the Visual
Designer is soooooooooooooooo easy to use (IMO).

Regards,

Friedrich Linder
CEO, Lindersoft
www.lindersoft.com
1.954.252.3910

tor.gif

[NewsArchive]

[Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:10 AM]

Hi fredrich,

I'm currently going to test the features you described, and reply (in fully)
....

And I thank you for the answer (I'l reply in full later)

I must however ,admit I cant even find the screen you so nicely supplied me
as tbh.gif (to exclude all the files I dont need to see in the list )???

I've tried, every option I could find in the "Files and folder" but cant get
this window to show ??

Probably just me, (again), how do you go about to get the file properties
window ??

The help for "Files & Folders" dont seem to mention this .:


Cheers


Tor-Bjarne

[NewsArchive]

[Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:22 AM]

Hi Tor-Bjarne,

Because it's still a Release Candidate, the .chm help system is under
development ;-)

1. Select "Files and Folders" screen (you see 4 lists now).
2. In the upper left list, navigate to, say, Clarion6. The files appear
in the upper right window.
3. In the "Destination Computer" pane (lower left), select the
Application Folder item.
4. In the lower right list, right-click the mouse and select Add
5. Double click the newly created *.* to open the File Properties
6. Select the File Linking tab

--
Friedrich Linder
CEO, Lindersoft
www.lindersoft.com
1.954.252.3910

[NewsArchive]

[Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:30 AM]

Ok, so I did a Include all EXE's (*.exe) AND exclude everything else (*.*)

... But got none files .. :)

Yes I recon it is bechause of the exclude *.*, but if i want my say 3 exe's
and maiby a couple of dll's ??

OK

So Tryout 2 entries instead Include *.EXE with no exclusions, And *.DLL's
with no exclusions.

But the files I've selected does not become a part of any list or script
(This way I could delete the files I did Not want, of type EXE and DLL)
the script just shows somthing like "Install file \*.exe"

So my test1.exe, test2.exe, deletethis.exe, rotten.dll, old.dll are also
beeing shipped.

Well I have to go back to the file browser (Showing with the *.clw files and
so forth a total of 2040 files) and starts rolling the mouse wheel ......

Then I think.: What if the File Browser window (Upper right corner) had all,
or some of the following features.:

When I right click I'd get a menu saying

1. Add file manually (SB5 could still check to see it it existed)
2. Filter (Giving me the options to exclude and/or include) files to show


When I type "MYGreat", it jumps to the first file that start with MYGREa...
similar to CW browses or IDE
Now I get the first file starting with M, first file that starts with Y and
so forth ...


>And you can't do this with SB5? Why????
>
>1. Start the IDE.
>2. File|New|Empty Project...
>3. Click Save to create the project.
>4. Double click [PRODUCTNAME] in the General Information list and enter
>your
> product name.
>5. Enter your installation path in the [INSTALLDIR] field.
>6. Perform a Dynamic or Static scan.
>7. Compile and Run

OK, I did ....

As for my other statements, I'm truly sorry, I've probably mixed Wise and
SB4 all together (and it has been some years since I used any of them), also
probably blowing it out of porposions.

But there are some more fields you need to fill in other than product name
and installdir to!, otherwise people starts surfing to your.company.com and
phoning 88888 ;)

And to me a new user it was a bit overwhelming when I fired the packaged
..... pages of pages with information, making me belive I had to fill inn all
the little checkboxes and options...


Best regards


Tor-Bjarne

[NewsArchive]

[Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:35 AM]

Of course, you'll no see the files in the list! The compiler adds the
files!!! That's dynamic file linking.

Friedrich

--
Friedrich Linder
CEO, Lindersoft
www.lindersoft.com
1.954.252.3910

[NewsArchive]

[Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:59 AM]

Tor-Bjarne,

> Ok, so I did a Include all EXE's (*.exe) AND exclude everything else (*.*)
>
> ... But got none files .. :)
>
> Yes I recon it is bechause of the exclude *.*, but if i want my say 3
> exe's and maiby a couple of dll's ??

Sorry, but include *.exe (add exe files) and exclude *.* (do not add any
file) does not make sense ;-)

> OK
>
> So Tryout 2 entries instead Include *.EXE with no exclusions, And *.DLL's
> with no exclusions.
>
> But the files I've selected does not become a part of any list or script
> (This way I could delete the files I did Not want, of type EXE and DLL)
> the script just shows somthing like "Install file \*.exe"
>
> So my test1.exe, test2.exe, deletethis.exe, rotten.dll, old.dll are also
> beeing shipped.

Don't get me wrong, but do you think it's a good idea (in your case) to
distribute files from within your *development* folder?

> Well I have to go back to the file browser (Showing with the *.clw files
> and so forth a total of 2040 files) and starts rolling the mouse wheel
> ......
>
> Then I think.: What if the File Browser window (Upper right corner) had
> all, or some of the following features.:
>
> When I right click I'd get a menu saying
>
> 1. Add file manually (SB5 could still check to see it it existed)
> 2. Filter (Giving me the options to exclude and/or include) files to show
>
>
> When I type "MYGreat", it jumps to the first file that start with
> MYGREa... similar to CW browses or IDE
> Now I get the first file starting with M, first file that starts with Y
> and so forth ...

What about using the "Sort by Type" feature. Then you have the .exe
(Applications) and .dll (Application Extensions) at the top of your list
(upper right window).

>>And you can't do this with SB5? Why????
>>
>>1. Start the IDE.
>>2. File|New|Empty Project...
>>3. Click Save to create the project.
>>4. Double click [PRODUCTNAME] in the General Information list and enter
>>your
> > product name.
>>5. Enter your installation path in the [INSTALLDIR] field.
>>6. Perform a Dynamic or Static scan.
>>7. Compile and Run
>
> OK, I did ....
>
> As for my other statements, I'm truly sorry, I've probably mixed Wise and
> SB4 all together (and it has been some years since I used any of them),
> also probably blowing it out of porposions.

Okay.

> But there are some more fields you need to fill in other than product name
> and installdir to!, otherwise people starts surfing to your.company.com
> and phoning 88888 ;)

What you can do is to enter your information (if your installation uses the
above *options*), save it as a project template and re-use it for all new
projects. See "Creating and Editing Installation Templates" in the help
file.

> And to me a new user it was a bit overwhelming when I fired the packaged
> ..... pages of pages with information, making me belive I had to fill inn
> all the little checkboxes and options...

SB5 gives you a maximum of power and flexibility. You can, but don't need
to, use all the power features (scripting, web deployment, etc., etc.).

--
Friedrich Linder
CEO, Lindersoft
www.lindersoft.com
1.954.252.3910

[NewsArchive]

[Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:30 PM]

>But there are some more fields you need to fill in other than product name
>and installdir to!, otherwise people starts surfing to your.company.com and
>phoning 88888 ;)

I don't know if templates are specific to SB5 Dev, but creating a template
for all that can save some time.

BTW, I've used WISE Professional for many years. IMO, SB5 is a good deal
easier to use than WISE, which is one of several reasons I chose to move to
SB. The WISE Installation System product line to which WISE Professional
belongs seems to me to be dead. WISE Pro hasn't seen a major upgrade in 3+
years. They have been focusing their resources on their Windows Installer
product line, which are ridiculously expensive to buy and even more so to
keep current.

--
Best regards,

Mark

[NewsArchive]

[Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:19 PM]

Hi Friedrich,

>You only need the documentation when using the Script Editor (IMO).
....
>Sorry, but I don't understand this. Where is SB5 complicated? SB5 and

I need the docs on how to do the web deployment;) I updated to the
latest build yesterday (sorry, never got around to do it while I was
in Iceland:( It has some information about how the WebUpdate works.
However... "iDeploy WebUpdate is a companion technology that lets you
install a small update program with your application." I would like
to call this update progra from my application, but I have no idea
what this "small update program" is called and I can't find any
information on it in the help. I _know_ the help is under
development, this is just a suggestion that this particular area will
probably need some good step by step guides for idiots like me to
figure out the process;)

One thing I'm quite confused about the WebUpdate: I have built and
distributed version 1.000 of a particular system. Now I want to
create an install with the webupdate enabled. Next month I want to
create a new install with updates. What exactly do I put into that
install? Full install or only files that have changed since the
original install or??? The help on the Auto Update Scan is not ready
so I'm not sure how it is supposed to work. I'm going to experiment
with this over the weekend and see what happens.

While on the help topic: "License Agreement Dialog" topic does not
have the right header styles set, i.e. the header text appears black.
You may also want to change the styles for the navigation links in the
header as they get difficult to see and read.

Also as to why SB5 is complicated. First of all it has like 200 times
more options than SB4<g> With that comes complexity. Now we have
both script editor and visual designer. I have built about 10
installs with SB5 and for the most part they have went smoothly. I've
hit some bugs here and there which you have fixed right away. I have
found that I need documentation because some features like the
WebUpdate stuff is something I want to read about before I dive into
it. Going from SB4 to SB5 is kind of like going from Paint to
PhotoShop;) With the power comes more complexity and more needs for
good documentation and tutorials on how exactly to do things. I'm a
very visual person and if I can _see_ how something is done I can pick
it up easily. Videos are my favourite tutorial method, but that is
not for everybody...

Best regards,

Arnór Baldvinsson
Icetips Software
San Antonio, Texas, USA
www.icetips.com

[NewsArchive]

[Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:41 PM]

Hello,

I just want to add a comment (constructive as possible because I believe
Friedrich is one of the most talented Clarion developers I've ever seen). -
But, I am sticking for SB4 for now, even though SB5 is a free upgrade.

I really believe that in my case, SB4 does 99% of the job. It is easy to
use and when I do builds, I just want to hit 3 buttons - I've spent weeks
and months on my application and really don't want to spend extra time with
just an installation package - or at least more than I have to.

When I looked at SB5 (a long while ago), I offered a neat suggestion to
Friedrich and it was implemented (the main 'hyper-link' on the main
screen) - mostly because it was so much easier. However, when I look at all
the tons of options, including Product GUID and Upgrade GUID right on the
main page with a whole bunch of numbers and letters ... I go "WTF -
UH?" -- it just seems so complicated when all I want to do is a simple
installation.

I guess I love the complexity when I need it ... but don't like the
complexity in my face when I don't. <g>

But, when I develop software - I tend to think more towards Sales, Money and
Ease of Use, rather than complication.

Let me get into some detail:

1. On general settings ... the 2nd tab, PRODUCT GUID and UPGRADE GUID seems
to be something I would have put on the last tab or advanced. Probably
never needed, never noticed and not important 99% of the time.

2. Same with Uninstall directories ... again, writing an Installation
program, I'd want to the Uninstall information as the LAST tab, not the 2nd.
Make sense?

3. In terms of what is basically needed to write an install package, there
is no wizard or logical step. Meaning, come up with the basic items that
need to be addressed, so the user can say "Hey, I don't want to learn how to
use this silly thing - I just want to fill in the blanks and be done".
Then, if I want to get more complicated, I'll start looking under the hood
later. I do that when I buy a car! Tell me how to start this thing and
get off the car-lot, I'll figure out how to set the home-link later on when
I get home. In terms of logical step, the "GENERAL" link third option is
WEB DEPLOYMENT. In my opinion, the third option should be "Files and
Folders". :-) --- Isn't that far more important and commonly used instead
of Web Deployment?

I mean this with the highest respect for Friedrich and what he has
accomplished. I would be more than willing to give details and any other
advice from someone who has a very short attention span - meaning, if I can
figure it out, anyone can figure it out type of interface.

Keep up the great work - and just dumb it down but keep it complicated on
the inside. <G>

Thank you.

-Robert

[NewsArchive]

[Thursday, April 21, 2005 12:14 AM]

>including Product GUID and Upgrade GUID right on the
>main page with a whole bunch of numbers and letters ... I go "WTF -
>UH?" -- it just seems so complicated when all I want to do is a simple
>installation.

Robert,

FWIW, some bits and pieces are forced upon us by MS. The GUID stuff is there
for the upcoming support of Windows Installer.

--
Best regards,

Mark

[NewsArchive]

[Thursday, April 21, 2005 12:26 AM]

Mark,

Thanks - my advice was more towards, hide the complicated looking stuff. I
don't think we need to know the GUID to simply write an installation
program of our Clarion application. :-)

-Robert

[NewsArchive]

[Thursday, April 21, 2005 1:25 AM]

>Thanks - my advice was more towards, hide the complicated looking stuff. I
>don't think we need to know the GUID to simply write an installation
>program of our Clarion application. :-)

Robert,

Quite true, and it wasn't my intent to counter your points. :} I was thinking
more along the lines of Friedrich didn't arbitrarily choose to implement use
of GUIDs.

--
Best regards,

Mark

[NewsArchive]

[Thursday, April 21, 2005 3:10 AM]

Hi Robert,

I'm sure that Friedrich takes aboard your comments and suggestions in
the spirit of your intent and is never offended by same, despite it
being his baby :) He's just that sort of bloke isn't he.

Whilst I agree somewhat with you and Arnor and others about the
apparent complexity because of all the options actually staring you in
the face, it is my understanding that Friedrich is in the process of
adding the necessary wizards that will separate the user from the
myriad of options until needed. His dilemma has been that he couldn't
design the wizards until the development cycle was nearly finished and
that the features and fixes that people needed were properly
incorporated. We were all spoilt by SB4's simplicity but I think that
the implementation of the appropriate wizards will allay everybody's
fears.

Best Regards,
Geoff Spillane
Data Down Under

[NewsArchive]

[Thursday, April 21, 2005 7:13 AM]

Hi Geoff,

>Whilst I agree somewhat with you and Arnor and others about the
>apparent complexity because of all the options actually staring you in
>the face, it is my understanding that Friedrich is in the process of
>adding the necessary wizards that will separate the user from the
>myriad of options until needed. His dilemma has been that he couldn't
>design the wizards until the development cycle was nearly finished and

I understand that dilemma myself all too well<g> I've been working on
a project for almost 3 years and finally it is getting to testing
phase, which was simply not possible until we had enough of the
project in place to make it complete enough to start testing. So far
no problems, just some (very) minor issues:)

SB5 is already an awsome tool and I have no doubt that when Friedrich
get's a moment to step back and take a look that he will come up with
some great ideas to simplify things. Sometimes it has frustrated me
not to have more documentation because there are new things you can do
with SB5 that you couldn't with SB4, such as the code signing, etc.
etc. However, with some help from Friedrich (and several others too:)
I have been able to do everything I have needed to do in SB5.

Best regards,

Arnór Baldvinsson
Icetips Software
San Antonio, Texas, USA

[NewsArchive]

[Thursday, April 21, 2005 1:01 PM]

Geoff,

Thanks for your comments and can completely understand the 'baby' comment -
everyone at my company calls 'roomMaster' my baby and I take comments
sometimes too harsh and people have to calm me down when I hear crazy
suggestions. <g>

I know what it is like to start something from scratch and watch it grow for
years and years -- it is just like a child.

-Robert

[NewsArchive]

[Thursday, April 21, 2005 12:24 PM]

All,

Thanks so much for your feedback - I think we can come up with a "solution"
tomorrow (I have revamped the IDE now).

I fear I got a "tunnel view effect" after three years of development.

--
Friedrich Linder
CEO, Lindersoft
www.lindersoft.com
1.954.252.3910

[NewsArchive]

[Thursday, April 21, 2005 1:04 PM]

> I think we can come up with a "solution" tomorrow

Friedrich,

Please slow down! We didn't mean right away. :-) We're used to SV's
pace.

-Robert